Rabbi Gafni, with elections for the 17th Knesset less than
a week away, what is the significance of this period for the
observant public?
We are currently in a completely different situation compared
to what we have been accustomed to. Until now the discussions
and the battles were over how much money we could obtain for
Torah and education institutions, but from now on the
situation is entirely different. Even if we secure funding,
we don't receive it. We face a battle that is primarily over
legislation, regulations and criteria. The Justice Ministry
and the legal advisors at government ministries are backed by
ranking officials and the courts, and they allow us to be
harmed in such a way that even if at the political level
agreements are reached with us, the money does not get
transferred by the bureaucrats.
How can this be solved?
What we will have to do, if indeed we have the power to
accomplish it and a coalition cannot be assembled without us,
is to change legislation, regulations and criteria in
government decisions. We won't demand more money but rather a
change in the legislative stance toward Torah and education
institutions. To achieve this we'll need a great deal of
power, because this is not a matter of money. They will fight
against us and keep the money from reaching its
destination.
I'll give you two salient examples: The legal advisors are
not willing to transfer NIS 28 million in funding for
talmudei Torah even though they took a much deeper cut
than the rest of the education system. Another example:
Chinuch Atzmai busing. This is a struggle that has been going
on for years and that got much worse in recent years. There
is money for busing from the NIS 290 million ($62 million)
UTJ received in the budget agreement, but they drag things on
for a month with money that does not materialize, another
three months they do us a favor and then for two months they
drag it on again. We have to put a stop to this once and for
all. Many Torah organizations depend on busing [which is also
integral to] the whole issue of Jewish education in Israel,
not just the education of the chareidi public. This is a case
of education for a sector that is interested in Jewish
education. If there is no way to fund these activities we
will face a very serious problem.
What currently weighs in the balance is not more funding or
less funding, but an existential struggle for the entire
Torah system in Israel. There is a battle to simply do away
with us.
Who wants to do away with us?
The secular, anti-religious establishment, which also
receives backing from some religious people, and most of all
from ranking officials, jurists and courts. I am not
including the political ranks in this. If they need us they
stand by us, if not they oppose us.
Therefore the question of what is the significance of UTJ's
strength is whether to give power to those who want to
persecute us or to give us the power to alter the situation
from the bottom up. This is not what took place in the past
elections or the three previous elections. This is something
new we are all witnessing. So if you want the talmudei
Torah to be funded the way they really deserve to be
without doing them any favors; if you want Chinuch Atzmai to
continue running properly or that the harm done to Torah
institutions stops — harm that can be critical —
and the same applies regarding all issues affecting the
chareidi public, the question falls away. Not to speak of the
matter of . . . separation of religion and state . . .
Doesn't the problem stem from senior officials who receive
signals from high up to scheme against the chareidim?
Beyond a doubt if the government education system suffered
blows like ours for supposedly legal reasons — and
those who are familiar with the matter know there are no real
legal grounds — and the secular establishment was
brought to a standstill, the media would open all of the news
shows with these problems. Our problems can be heard here and
there in out-of-the-way corners of the media. No attention
has been focused on the catastrophe of a cultured,
egalitarian country not paying as it should. If this were to
happen in the secular establishment they wouldn't let half a
day go by without the media pouncing on it. But in our case
they are not afraid of someone coming along and saying, "They
are really letting you get away with murder." The justice
system, the media and the ministry officials — without
making generalizations — are happy over this. And it's
not just secular people in the system. Therefore it is very
clear that in order to change the situation it has to be
changed from the bottom up and to do that takes a lot of
power, because we are not backed by the media.
And the problem is the same regarding religious
services?
In this area too, what happened is that the Likud and Kadima
— both of them together because they were in the same
40- mandate government — along with HaIchud HaLeumi,
the NRP and Shinui, dismantled the Religious Affairs Ministry
with appalling irresponsibility. They did not think of any
solution for the day after, what would become of religious
services, the debts to be paid to rabbonim, the employees and
all of the service providers in this system in Israel. They
did it with total abandon in order to be in the coalition and
to occupy the seats, and I blame all those who were partners
in this move . . .
The workers have to receive their pay and a legislative
change has to be made as I tried to do — and because of
the other religious parties it failed. If my law had passed
we would have made a legislative change and the religious
council workers would have become state workers and received
their salaries on the first of the month. This time around
this has to be done.
How did it happen all of a sudden, when none of this took
place in the past?
There has been a change in the country. Everything needs to
be legislated and there has to be legal backing. On the issue
of religious services there is less sympathy and here too, we
will have to make a far-reaching change, which we are already
working on — both in funding for Torah and educational
institutions and in religious services. We know what we want.
We have identified the problem and the solutions. The
question is whether we will have the power to do it.
What are the solutions?
Legislative change, reorganization and raising the level of
budgeting for religious services. That way we won't have to
talk about money but about the standing of the rabbonim and
the workers, rather than what has been the case over the
years. We cannot have the situation, which has been taking
place in recent years, in which along comes the Justice
Ministry and determines that the religious council workers
are not workers whose wages the state has to pay. The
legislation has to be completed in a clear way and with
precise regulations, because without this the situation will
go on and it has to be changed from the bottom up. This is
the challenge before us.
Are you sure it will help? Won't the hostile figures
continue to look for ways to undermine religious
issues?
I am sure. Everyone is watching the battle. You don't have to
be involved in the details of the matter to see there is a
battle being waged over the State of Israel as a Jewish
state. Chareidi Jewry is rising up and flourishing while the
entire secular system has collapsed. The secular system is on
the bottom rung in the Western world.
When I was asked in the Education Committee why Israel is on
the bottom rung in international surveys, I told them Jews
are not mediocre. They are either at the top or at the
bottom. When Jewish youth in Israel was stripped of Jewish
values it descended down into the abyss according to
international standards.
Their education system collapsed. Parents are afraid to send
their children to school. Not to speak of the leisure culture
among secular youth. The level of violence has reached
unprecedented heights, and in this kind of reality, when they
see chareidi education succeeding — according to
international gauges as well, not just that our education is
solid — they scheme against us. They say we raise
ignoramuses but it turns out we have better command of
[secular] subjects, too, particularly at girls' schools.
Envy and hatred lead them to lose their senses. It's hard for
them to admit what they spent decades teaching has totally
collapsed. It's hard for them to admit the chareidi way led
by gedolei Torah succeeded. There is an ideological
battle [and] in this battle the defenses and the remedy are
clear. What the future holds in store — Hashem
yeracheim. Every period requires a certain remedy. We
hope they do teshuvoh and admit their way failed and
ours succeeded. Therefore every possible effort has to be
made to strengthen the UTJ list . . .
* * *
Apparently the fact that Shinui was ousted from the
government and totally collapsed has not helped, for the
scheming continues and they have successors: government
officials who scheme against us.
Shinui was a phenomenon that was previously unknown and I
hope will never be again. Never before has a party appeared
in Israel whose entire platform has nothing to do with
security affairs, social affairs or economic affairs, but
only seeks to slander, harm and cause every other sector of
the population to hate the chareidi sector, which is not
small. Unfortunately this party received 15 mandates and that
was very frightening, although we could always say —
and it may be true — many people voted for Shinui
because there was nobody else to vote for; they didn't want
to vote for the right and were disappointed with the left.
But the very fact this hatred and terrible instigation was
its only platform [was alarming].
And we remember the previous election campaign was frightful
in a manner reminiscent of dark days in Jewish history. The
phenomenon itself, regardless of the problems themselves,
demanded every effort be made to destroy it. Then with
siyata deShmaya, a lot of shrewdness and
sophistication, and very focused activity, and under the
direction of gedolei Torah every step of the way, we
managed to disgrace them in the eyes of the public and within
their own organizations.
I won't forget moves we made under the precise direction of
Maran HaRav Eliashiv shlita. We conducted negotiations
that put them to shame. We were in the middle of negotiations
that came to naught because Shinui was in the coalition and
we had received instructions not to join the coalition.
Quarrels began to break out in the Shinui Council, quarreling
that disgraced them in the public eye and among themselves as
well. Through our very sophisticated moves they totally
disintegrated in an unprecedented way. This was the first
stage and then [our] budget agreement with the Likud took
them out [of the coalition]. But their disintegration, their
vanishing from the political map in a way never seen before,
was an instance of Hashem yilocheim lochem. It was a
war waged against them from the Heavens. This war was one of
UTJ's notable achievements in the current term, i.e. that
Shinui smashed to pieces to the point of cherev ish
berei'eihu.
But Shinui was not our underlying problem to begin with, but
that there are large segments of the population in Israel
that are able to vote for a party whose platform was war
against the chareidi sector. But within the regular parties
there are people who are much worse. Fortunately Shinui did
not do anything. They created an atmosphere of hatred and the
large parties are liable to carry through. If a large party
takes control and can do whatever it wants without us, the
danger will be much greater than that posed by Shinui.
Are you hinting at Kadima?
I'm not hinting about anyone. To me there is no difference
between Kadima and the Likud, between Labor and Meretz or
even the NRP. When the NRP was in the coalition and
controlled the Welfare Ministry they harmed and cut the
budgets of Torah institutions funded by the Welfare Ministry
much more than the ministries controlled by other parties
did. Chareidi institutions had a budget of NIS 64 million
[$14 million], which was cut to NIS 23 million [$5 million]
within one year.
Do you think Shinui created a phenomenon that spread
through the government ministries, allowing the chareidi
public to be targeted?
Shinui was an indication. We have a battle that goes back
many years. If chas vesholom the chareidi public had
not succeeded we wouldn't have grown and our institutions
would not have succeeded, chas vesholom. The Torah
institutions would not have grown and they would not have
fought against us. But the reality of the situation is
different. In every place, from Dan to Eilat, there is a
beis knesses, a mikveh, a kollel, a
yeshiva and a Torah-based school. All of these things create
a phenomenon, as I said, of a battle waged against us.
It doesn't have to be accompanied with hatred. Shinui was an
indication that a problem like this can exist. The danger is
from all of the secular parties and sometimes from a
religious party as well. There is only one remedy against
this trend: a strong UTJ, strong enough that we can confront
this.
I want to tell the public one thing unequivocally: It really
doesn't matter so much who UTJ's MKs are, but rather UTJ's
strength. The MKs have the ability and the skill, but the
question is also one of power: five, six or seven mandates.
One or two more mandates in the preceding term would have
changed the picture entirely. The coalition with Shinui would
not have formed. Politicians make very cold calculations.
They take out a pen and paper and check who has more mandates
and set up a coalition accordingly.
Someone might come along and say he has criticism or claims
to lodge against us, or just doesn't have the time to vote.
He can sit at home but sometimes a few votes is enough to
lose a mandate that could have been crucial to the fate of
chareidi Jewry in Israel in the coming years. In history one
will be able to examine what was the turning point for the
worse in 5766 and calculate how one or two mandates were lost
because of considerations like these and others among a few
chareidi or religious Jews who invest much more on a daily
basis in other matters and when it comes to such a fateful
decision in this day and age, because of a lack of
attentiveness, it could come about that history will point to
5766 as a hard year that was a turning point for the worse,
because of Jews who didn't go to vote.
Why are we persecuted? Because of our success?
This is clear. All of these battles would have never taken
place had we not succeeded or if we had remained a very small
sector, like many years ago, if the institutions and yeshivas
had not succeeded and flourished. I sit and participate in
Knesset committees, in all of the forums dealing with issues
not necessarily related to the chareidi public, and I see
their perspective on matters. It is very clear that if we
hadn't grown the way we have, in both quantity and quality,
everything would have been completely different.
And there is another issue which is of much greater
importance and here, too, we stand at a crossroads: our
responsibility towards the traditional sector in Israel.
During the last term, which was unprecedented in the level of
difficulty we encountered, the secular parties did not manage
to pass even one anti-religious law of substance, but on the
other hand no religious law passed either. We remained
vigilant with all our might and we had siyata
deShmaya. Even the terrible coalition Shinui was in did
not succeed in passing any anti-religious laws, including
less significant laws that would have had repercussions for
the national- religious sector as well. Even laws with
various clauses that could have harmed halachic issues.
But nowadays we are hearing talk from the secular parties,
including Kadima, about changes in Shabbos, marriage and
divorce and issues related to the traditional sector. People
could change their whole way of life because of legislative
changes. If marriage and divorce prohibited by halochoh are
made possible, there will be a serious, destructive breech in
this sector. If, choliloh, there is a separation of
religion and state in this country both the observant and the
non-observant public will be harmed. The majority of the
population is traditional and if there is no separation of
religion and state, and marriage and divorce is done
according to halochoh, generally the traditional sector keeps
what the national laws say . . . But if the laws change,
choliloh, it won't be our children who are affected.
Rather we have an obligation toward the traditional sector,
toward which we have a mutual obligation, for if we cannot
preserve the existing situation everything will be destroyed,
choliloh.
And do you say these things to both the convinced and the
unconvinced?
I imagine that those who read these remarks say to themselves
that I want to persuade them to vote. This is true, but
there's more to it. I am familiar with the situation, I live
it — day in and day out. I'm in the heat of the battle
with the MKs at the forefront against figures that are not
necessarily anti-religious but government officials,
government ministries, the Knesset and its committees, and I
know where things are headed. Beyond a shadow of a doubt if
we don't have strength everything could go down the drain and
everything depends on the voter turnout.
You are talking about six or seven mandates changing
everything, but to achieve this wouldn't UTJ need ten
mandates?
Six or seven mandates could definitely change everything.
This is not theoretical. It is a reality that could
conceivably transpire. Everything hinges on one or two
mandates, which could alter the destiny of the character of
the State of Israel in matters related to the traditional
sector as well as the chareidi sector and government bodies'
attitude toward it.
